All In With Chris Hayes : MSNBCW : June 26, 2024 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT : Free Borrow & Streaming : Internet Archive (2024)

>> young kenyans are demonstrating for their rights. they are demonstrating with wags and banners. i can't even see anymore. we are being tear-gassed. >> the chaos comes one month after president biden hosted the kenyan president at a lavish white house state dinner where he celebrated the u.s. kenya partnership. yesterday the first of 400 kenyan police officers arrived in haiti to lead a peacekeeping force to tackle gang violence there. that is tonight's "reidout". be sure to join me tomorrow night for special coverage and analysis of the first presidential debate hosted by cnn. "all in with chris hayes" starts now. tonight, on "all in" --

>> having immunity is so important and i hope the supreme court has the courage to do that. >> the supreme court runs out the clock on immunity and legalizes bribery in the meantime. today's ruling that was a shocker even for this court. then, hours away from the debate trump world is openly worrying about their candidates conduct. >> it would be suicidal if he doesn't change how he conducted himself. >> and nancy pelosi on another leaked supreme court decision on abortion when "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. i am chris hayes. once again the supreme court making news today, both for what they did do and what they did not do. the court did not rule on

donald trump's wild, desperate bid for total immunity for the crimes he committed while in office. a case that is very clearly the most pressing in terms of immediate deadlines, not to mention stakes for american democracy. it is one in which this court's conservative majority has at this point, i think it is fair to say, obviously dragged their feet to protect trump from going on trial before the november elections on charges of trying to overthrow an election. everything you need to know can come from the decision they did release today. for a brief moment today the court posted a copy of a decision that appears set to allow emergency room doctors in idaho to perform abortions in certain situations. they quickly took it down and i will have more on that later, but the first decision, the one they actually meant to put up, the one they released on purpose, well, how can i put this? it effectively legalized latent public corruption again. the case was snyder versus the united states and involves this

man, james snyder, the former republican mayor of hardage, indiana. in 2011 he pitched himself to voters as a successful businessman, the owner of a mortgage company who could bring fiscal responsibility to the city of portage. >> you have my commitment that this responsibility is so much more. as a business owner in the mortgage industry, we were on the front lines of the economic disaster. each month fiscal restraint was realized in different ways with my employees and me. because we managed and navigated prudently, our mortgage company is still open in the end. >> by 2013 snyder was now the mayor. that pitch was successful to the voters. it seems his theory of fiscal responsibility had not quite worn out. as the chicago tribune reports it was christmas time and james snyder was in trouble.

his mortgage business had tanked, the irs was after him for a significant text at and on top of that he had holiday spending to account for. so snyder showed up unannounced to a local truck dealership he helped to win two city contracts. i need money. that's what i'm here for, the mayor told the owners. days later the dealership cut snyder a check for $13,000 saying it was for consulting that was never performed. all right. he steers contracts to this dealership. he shows up and says i need money and they give him $13,000. i am not a lawyer, but a sitting mayor walking into the office of a business where he steered contracts and saying give me cash does not sound lawful and the department of justice agreed. snyder was indicted and after a lengthy back-and-forth and multiple trials he was found guilty in 2021.

>> the former mayor will spend 21 months behind bars. a federal judge handed down the sentence yesterday. a jury convicted james snyder of taking a $13,000 bribe from a trucking company and illegal tax evasion. >> snyder has consistently denied any wrongdoing. he argues that $13,000 was just a fee for his consulting work, the what that work is was unclear. what's more, it could not be a bribe and this is what he argued before the supreme court of the united states. it cannot be a bribe because he received the money after the contracts were allocated, so if anything it was more like a tip for a job well done, like a barista. he moved the screen around and the guy was like okay, boom. wouldn't you know it, the supreme court agreed. today they throughout snyder's conviction. here is how justice brett kavanaugh put it in his opinion. the question in this case is whether the law also makes it a crime or state and local

officials to accept gratuities. for example, gift cards, lunches, plaques, books, framed photos or the like that may be given as a token of appreciation after the official act. the answer is no. framed plaques, books, you see, snyder just excepted a gratuity, a little tip as a reward for steering contracts to a trucking company. it was like a nice book or a commemorative plaque or $13,000. here's the thing. this is sort of a narrow statutory interpretation decision about this aspect of the federal code. the decision does not exist in a vacuum. you have to understand this. this comes against the context of a supreme court that has increasingly lost the public trust and not just because samuel alito keeps flying insurrection flags outside his ohms or because clarence thomas's wife was texting the white house chief of staff conspiracy theories about the

bidens being sent to guantanamo bay, but because of the obvious corruption. particularly clarence thomas, the subject of our favorite bar chart which documents the $4 million in disclosed and undisclosed, what would i call it, gratuities, that he received on the court. like a luxury rv worth a quarter of $1 million. trips on a luxury super yacht. how do you think that guy feels about corruption laws and whether gratuities are prosecutable? how about justice alito got a free fishing trip and $100,000 in free travel on a private jet? what you think his take is on ethics rules for government officials? would you be shocked to learn that both of those men voted to throw out snyder's conviction today? this is not a one-off. this is important. this court has shown itself both in practice and in theory to be committed to a pro- corruption agenda. in 2010 the roberts court limited the scope of the

federal corruption lot in the case of enron. in 2016 it overturned the conviction of a former republican governor who along with his wife excepted nearly $200,000 in gifts, gratuities you might call them, loans, from local businessmen. in 2020 and throughout the convictions of former new jersey officials and the corrupt bridge gate scandal after they intentionally caused a massive traffic jam to punish a political rival. to be clear and fair, those decisions were not all down ideological lines. this one was and it is clear that the trump majority are the ones dictating a new, more radical direction of this court including today's decision. they really do seem to in the aggregate want to get rid of the criminalization of corruption and bribery. they want to make corruption legal and acceptable for all. considering they went out of their way to bail out a former

republican mayor from a small town in indiana, what you think they will be willing to do for the former republican president of the united states? this one is cartoonish, i've got to say. >> brett kavanaugh and the conservatives. it is only bribery effect comes from the right region of france. everything else is sparkling corruption. when you bring out not just this case, but all of the cases the court has done over roberts's tenure to weaken public corruption laws, i like to think of it like a gang and for the new initiate he also has to steal a purse. corrupt cops, they take the money and everybody has to share, so everybody is implicated. so there is no accountability for everybody. everybody has their hands dirty and that is what the supreme court is trying to do. they are trained to make it seem like everything in politics is dirty. >> that is their position and

also it is a different line of cases and a constitutional case with statutory interpretation, which is how the u.s. constitution operates as opposed to the criminal code, but if you look at citizens united and all that stuff, the whole idea is look, politics is grubby stuff. >> it is that idea that we keep sing with republicans where every accusation is a confession. they say everybody takes money. no, it is just you, corrupt people. you keep talking about statutory interpretation. i cannot say it better than justice ketanji brown jackson said in the dissent, where she says an absurd and abject reading of the statute that only this court could love. that is a direct shot across the bow at brett kavanaugh and the rest of them for this ridiculous ruling. >> to be clear the statute in question criminalizes a bribe or reward. it uses the term award.

as a general matter, everyone knows what a reward is. a surprise ice cream outing. the bar tab picked up by a supervisor celebrating her team. an award says thank you or good job, rather than please. >> everybody knows what is going on here, so you kind of come again to the crux of the issue, what is congress going to do? hr one, that was a bill that democrats ran on in the past. they could not get it passed, thank you joe manchin and kyrsten sinema. i haven't heard why they are against public corruption. but if democrats are pushing a universal ethics bill that applies not only to this situation that kevin i did with snyder, but also the supreme court and anybody who might be holding gold bars. until congress passes an ethics rule that applies to everybody,

the supreme court is going to let everybody off the hook for their corruption. >> two other things about the court today. this is a hard thing to say. the immunity decision. i guess what i want to say is we have no way of knowing this, but my strong suspicion is that it is not like you are in your college dorm room and the paper is due at 8:00 a.m. and it is 6:45 and you are like going through. it is done, right? they are staging this on purpose, right? >> since jack smith asked them. saying we don't know. look, they hear a case and then they take an initial straw poll vote of who will be for and who will be against and then the opinion writing starts. while there might still be legitimate back and forth about phrasing -- >> that is my question. that's the question. they have 10 more cases to go.

this stuff has been pushed, pushed, pushed. i would be willing to bet that we don't get immunity tomorrow because they don't want it to be the topic of the conversation for the debate. >> i think they want to do friday to step on the debate story and you will talk about this with nancy pelosi, but it is another good example. they do want that tomorrow. >> that's a great point. in this case ido basically says we will not give our state law says you cannot give emergency abortions in our hospitals except under extremely precise circ*mstances which basically no one can meet. the federal government sudan said we have a law which covers emergency care. it is actually signed under ronald reagan. they say federal law controls here and federal law requires that emergency abortions be given in certain circ*mstances. today the supreme court accidentally posted it for a little bit, but it is a

fascinating situation where they are basically punting. >> they are punting it until after the election. the supreme court issued a stay, basically siding with idaho, allowing them to put women's lives at risk. since the decision, six women had to be airlift out of ido into another state to receive medical care they could not receive. so they allow the federal law to operate, but only for a couple of months while the case goes back to the merits. in the opinion, amy coney barrett lays out exactly what idaho has to do in order to get her to flip on the other side and drool against the medical care. they are just going to rule after the election. you tell me why the supreme court doesn't want to make a major abortion decision just before the november election. >> they took the case and did what is called digging it.

it is like, we should not have taken this. you guys go back. stuff happened in the lower court. laws actually changed. come back to us maybe after the 2024 election. we will take another run at it. elie mystal, thank you very much. coming up, as elie mentioned, nancy pelosi on what republicans have planned for abortion rights in america. the first with less than 24 hours until the first debate, the top advice trump is getting from his buddies. that is next. next. nt story. i couldn't slow down. we were starting a business from the ground up. people were showing up left and right. and so did our business needs. the chase ink card made it easy. when you go for something big like this, your kids see that. and they believe they can do the same. earn unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase with the chase ink business unlimited card from chase for business. make more of what's yours.

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in advance of the presidential debate tomorrow, donald trump's allies are giving him advice. basically to not do what he did in the first debate back in 2020. >> i am the moderator of this debate and i would like you to let me ask my question and then you can answer. >> i want to make sure -- >> you were last in your class, not first in your class. >> let him finish, sir. >> why wouldn't he answer that question? >> the question is. >> radical left. >> would you shut up, man? >> whether trump can stop himself from being himself is the question tomorrow and tens of millions of people are expected to tune in.

olivia is the washington correspondent for new york magazine, where she spent years closely covering donald trump. i will start with you. do you think the advice to not be a raging a-hole is probably good advice. we talked about this yesterday. he can be nasty and cutting and bullying and i think that the popular conception of him, even when it is satirical, is clownish and buffoonish in a way that sends down the grossness of that and i wonder if he can keep that under control. >> he can't keep it under control. i don't that is an open question at all. >> the second debate. the first debate was like that and the second was way more muted. >> you are right, he was more muted there. i don't think we can overstate the fact that he is now a convicted felon and this is the

first time he is on a large stage in a very long time, but certainly since that became a reality. that really petulant, heady part of him you are talking about, there really mean, sharp one, if you had the misfortune of tuning into a rally lately, you have heard that. >> it is still there. >> it has grown. that is the part of him that has not matured. that is the wolfie is feeding if you were. i'm so sure that is what we will see tomorrow. >> he's been talking about complaining about biden for years now, but he has not been face-to-face with him, so i think he is going to be pretty savage. >> i think it is actually an important part of his political bill that it is not put on. he actually feels aggrieved. he actually feels like a victim. there is a technical part of this i want to get your thoughts on. interrupting played extremely poorly last time. the debate rules might work to

trumps advantage, said one veteran. when it is not a candidate's turn to speak sin and will cut his microphone. so there is a little bit of saving him from himself. >> they are imposing self- control on him that he does not have the self-control to self- imposed. i suppose maybe we could see him on mute, gesticulating wildly and maybe we can't hear him or maybe biden's microphone will pick it up depending on how sensitive it is, but i think it will have the effect of forcing him to behave in a more mature way than he is capable of on his own, which i think will help them. >> what concerns me is if biden can hear him, but we can't, doesn't that offer him an opportunity to really get petty? >> that is such a good point. here is my question for you about biden's approach. there has been a lot of talk about how do you navigate the sort of crazy maelstrom and what is your thinking about how

you sort of focus things and not chasing -- you know you saw that in the clips replayed yesterday. the key is you have a thing that you want to say. you need to control your own agenda. >> that is what biden needs to do. biden doesn't really need to be trump at this debate. biden needs to make the case to the democratic base that he is a president they should be excited to vote for and he needs to make the case that has come down to these two men and people have to make a choice. to a certain extent you can just sort of pointed out, while being yourself and pressing your own case. the most important thing he is going to do is talk to democratic voters tomorrow night. >> i think the most important thing he will do though is joe he has the stamina to be on that stage. privately it is everything people in politics i talked to talk about. is he able to pull that off? i think he needs to seem less

old than trump seems crazy. >> you are right. there is a tonal aspect of this. >> everyone knows so much about these guys. they've been hearing this for half a century. the mac there is a poll that says between 16 and 20% of voters blamed joe biden for the fall of rome. okay, if your coaching joe biden one thing that would be important for people tuning in tomorrow night is to know donald trump is on the side of the issue and i, joe biden, is on the side. it is amazing how difficult it can be with trump to just create clarity on questions of actual policy difference because he won't even let you do that. >> especially on that issue. trump has taken every single side of that issue. we know where he has. he was happy to sell whatever beliefs he actually had to the right in order to get their endorsem*nt in 2020 and in 2016.

he will say the opposite. he will say something that is designed to confuse and mislead his audience. >> he can say it, i don't know. >> that is why i think it is helpful to not have these guardrails that will be imposed, because the back and forth between trump and biden in 2020, did it inspire confidence in the country? did it make you feel good about the state of affairs in the presidential race? certainly not. >> it was revealing, yes, that is a good point. in some ways debates can reveal things even if they are not in formative. great to have you. coming up, nancy pelosi on one of the major issues that will, as we were saying, dominate the debate tomorrow. the republican party versus abortion rights, next.

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tomorrow's presidential debate, abortion rights will obviously be a big topic. the thing to keep in mind as you watches whatever donald trump says during the debate and whatever any republican says, the fact is that to its core the republican party is committed to banning access to abortion for all women in this country everywhere. it is what the strongest most activated members of the party want and what they are going to do. take a look at what happened in

south carolina. there were three republican state senators there who stood in the way of an incredibly draconian abortion ban and when they did that they were all primary. all three of those women lost their races to antiabortion men last night. that is the way that gravity pulls in today's republican party. every republican from state representatives all the way up to donald trump understands that. i am joined now by nancy pelosi. congresswomen from california. good to have you on. >> thank you. >> you are someone who spent a lifetime in politics from the time your father was the mayor of baltimore, so you understand the way that political incentives work. when you look at what is happened to the republican party. when you look at something like last night when these three senators stood in the way of this band. they get primary. they lose. what does that do to the way that republicans understand what they have to do and what

they will do about abortion, no matter what messaging they will say on, say, a debate stage? >> well, thank you very much for your question. it is good to be here as we observed the two-year anniversary of the dobbs decision and i can tell you this week that we had events all over, talking about how we had to reverse that decision with law. and enshrining roe v. wade in the law of the land. and also how people see it as a kitchen table issue. this is an economic issue for families. the size and timing of their families or if they are going to have a family. it is a freedom issue. it is a democracy issue. it is about freedom for women to make their own choices. so when you see the election in north carolina last night, it was heartbreaking. those women were courageous. they went out and said what

they believed and that was rejected by the voters, but we have to make sure the voters know and one thing they will know is the difference between joe biden and the former president of the united states. if the other guy wins there will be no question. there will be a national abortion ban in our country. i say that very sadly. as a roman catholic. as a person who had five children in six years and one week. very wonderful. a joy to us. that was their choice. other people should have their choice. tomorrow night you will see a split screen on the subject of respect for women. you will see a split screen on their economic life and the list goes on that we can talk about, but to stick with dobbs for a moment, one of the things we were observing this week as we had our drumbeat across america was access to

contraception. how many republicans do you think in the house of representatives voted for a woman to have the right to contraception? 195 republicans voted no, women do not have a right to contraception. we are not talking abortion, we are talking contraception, so this is about, they don't believe in birth control, but they do believe in controlling women. so the women have to recognize and as i say that election last night told me not enough people were paying sufficient attention to what was at stake and what it meant to those women, to their families, for their children and the rest. to have the economic issue, a freedom issue, a personal choice issue, just pulled away from them in that way.

and if he wins, well, he cannot win. it cannot happen. >> it can happen, i hate to tell you. >> make sure it doesn't, for a lot of reasons. one of them is that there will be an abortion ban in our country, that is a guarantee. >> let me ask you a follow-up. by the way my mind is still running the math on five children and six years and one week. i knew as an abstract fact about your life, but wow, that is incredible. there are two things. one is trump says no national ban. i'm not going to do a national ban and two, this gets to something you were saying that i was mentioning before. there are maybe 20% of voters who don't even realize that it was donald trump supreme court that took away roe v. wade. there is something like 20% of voters that think joe biden is responsible.

>> that is so interesting because he takes great pride in the fact that he packed the court day >> donald trump. >> and mitch mcconnell was his accomplice in all of this. packed the court against women. going out there, taking great pride in certain audiences and and other audiences saying i'm not going to do a ban and then there are other things contingent upon this. for example he says when you see the split screen tomorrow, in favor of a woman with respect to her ability to make her choices. the other side, a ban. a ban on contraception. a ban on terminating a pregnancy. a ban on free choice and liberty and then you see things that go with it. this is a health issue. he says and i quote him and it is crude, but he has. excuse me. the affordable care act,

obamacare sucks. no it does not suck, it cures. then he says pre-existing conditions and i am going to take care of you. no he hasn't. the bill he put forward didn't have anything about pre- existing conditions and if it did it would be so expensive, that forget about it. then you look at something else. people are concerned about inflation. 16 nobel laureates came out this week and said that if what's his name were like the president, with his fiscal policies, inflation would just increase enormous lee in our country and we have joe biden on the other side of that screen, leading the world in reducing inflation in our country. so any subject you can talk about. young people care so much about another scientific issue, climate. saving the planet.

bozo went on, sat down at the table with fossil fuel industry executives and said give me $1 billion for my campaign, so i can reverse what they have done with saving the planet. joe biden is they are. he was the first person in the congress of the united states, back in the 1980s, even before i was there, to introduce a resolution calling for the senate to address the climate crisis issue. >> let me ask you this question. i think most folks watching this agree about the sharpness of the contrast. certainly on these policy areas they think they are correct. there are real choices about healthcare. abortion rights. the climate and big oil. even inflation. given how sharp is the contrast, what you tell yourself when people ask u.s. they ask

me, why is it so close? what is your answer? >> i don't think it will be so close and don't forget we didn't mention guns. there are other issues where the split screen has a sharp contrast. we don't agonize about who says what. we organize. we on the ground, we get out and vote. joe biden will be the next president of the united states again. he will be. and kamala harris, the vice president. very proud of that and we are organized. i'm going all over the country. i am a former chair of the party. i came up and took over this being a grassroots organizer to get out the vote, on the political side, to get out the vote. i can smell a good campaign or not and i am telling you, the scent is there. people are ready. not just for example in the election of 2022 you will

recall that the pundits, wherever they are, were saying we would lose 30 or 40 seats. they didn't know what they were talking about. we were going to have a tsunami was it or a red wave or some such thing. we lost five. we will get them back. hakeem jeffries will be the speaker of the house. check will be the leader of the majority in the senate and joe biden will be president of the united states. back to 2022, i kept saying why are they saying that and even democrats were going on tv saying she's got it all wrong. dobbs is a big deal in this election. yes it was. they said it was all in the rearview mirror. women don't care that much. yes they do. as they do. that is one issue and it is a very important issue because it is a freedom issue, it is personal, it is health, it is

freedom, it is economic. >> and we have seen in special election after special election, that driving energy you talked about has showed up in special election after special election. nancy pelosi, always a pleasure to have you on, thank you for your time tonight. >> my pleasure, thank you. onward to victory. still ahead, heather right wing plans to dismantle the u.s. government as we know it, next. (♪♪) (♪♪) try dietary supplements from voltaren, for healthy joints.

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project 2025. the title sounds like a spoof, like a right-wing fantasy wish list for trump's second term. it is actually 900 pages of policy proposals and governing approaches not just from the heritage foundation, a whole coalition of leaders. that would fundamentally change the way the federal government works. they are not hiding their dystopian vision of what would be essentially a kind of authoritarian regime. a presidential dictatorship of sorts. it is out there for anyone to read on the project 2025 website, so this week on my podcast, why is this happening, i talked to a history professor at georgetown university who has not only read the whole thing, but analyzed exactly what project 2025 would do in a second trumpet term. >> on one level this is a program to dismantle the state and you see this for instance with department of education

needs to go. they won't completely abolish it, but then there is the weaponize and mobilize part and that is the idea to turn government into a tool that you can use for really two purposes. one is to punish your enemies and to is to impose this vision of patriotic order on american society. you see this for instance in the department of health and human services. if you read it, it has very little to do with public health at all. it is entirely conceived as an instrument to impose a certain understanding of, a heteronormative understanding of gender that is just man and woman. a heteronormative understanding of marriage. a hard-core pro-life antiabortion kind of approach. these people could not possibly be clear about what they want for the country, so trust in them and believe them when they say they are fundamentally not

on board with this vision of an egalitarian democracy. project 2025 is there declaration of war on this idea of america. that's what this is. >> i found the conversation really informative and profoundly chilling. it lays out exactly what is at stake in november and you can listen to the entire episode by scanning the qr code on your screen or search why is this happening, wherever you get your podcasts. your podcasts. our secular democracy is in danger. all personal liberties are in jeopardy. vote like your rights depend on it. and join the freedom from religion foundation, an association of atheists and agnostics working to keep religion and government separate.

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it's not nearly been a full month since president joe biden announced the details of a potential cease-fire agreement in the israel-hamas war that the u.s. had endorsed with a lot of people were hoping he could publicly get benjamin netanyahu to maintain a commitment to the outline of a deal that his war cabinet had committed to in private netanyahu now seems to have backed off that proposal a bit, which was approved by his own war cabinet, saying he is now only open to a partial deal to get some hostages out. but his government is committed to continuing the war to complete the goal of eliminating hamas. this is happening as the situation in gaza for palestinians continues to be horrible and is now actually getting worse. the risk of famine is deepening, a new report warns. nearly half 1 million people face catastrophic levels of acute food insecurity, that is from the report, which classified it as phase five, the highest level on the

classification scale. jeremy just returned from the region, he is the president of refugees international, a previously led foreign disaster assistance in the obama administration, more recently oversaw the coronavirus response in the biden administration, he joins me now. you were just in the region for a fact-finding mission about all of this. things got pretty dire, and then there was a push about a month ago to get more aid in. that seemed to have some positive effect, and now, a lot of talk, alarm bells ringing, what is going on? >> that is absolutely right. i want to talk first about what this looks like at a human level. we interviewed palestinians, some who are still in gaza, some who had fled away to egypt, away from the famine and the violence, about the conditions they had experienced, and we heard stories that are very consistent with telltale signs of famine conditions. we heard of mothers sending their children to rummage for any edible food in trash piles,

we heard about people eating cats, dogs, donkeys, because they had no other source of protein. skipping meals, we heard of the price of a bag of flour going from $20 before the war is sometimes hundreds of dollars during periods of deprivation. people really were struggling with famine conditions that peaked in february into march, and then in response to the march warnings, in response to the u.s. pressure, the israeli government did make some openings to enable greater aid, particularly into the north, that did have an effect, but it was contracted quite a bit. >> the israeli government's position on this is that the failures of aid are failures of either the u.n. incompetence or indolence, the hate groups themselves, or they will often say hamas grabbing aid or just marauding bandits essentially. it seems to me there have been

a lot of problems with just securing the distribution of aid, because people are desperate, and they are sort of doing that. >> we heard very few instances of hamas targeting humanitarian aid. they have targeted some of the commercial inflows that are organized by the israeli government. they have largely left the humanitarian aid alone, from everything we heard from our interviews. criminality is a big problem, it is a big problem because the military invasion has woken down public order, has broken down all the civilian structures, particularly civilian police. >> there is no functioning state. >> is no functioning state. eroding government, destroying hamas's ability to govern was netanyahu's strategy, he achieved that, but nothing has filled its place. but what we heard more than anything, the biggest obstacle and the biggest variable and whether we see famine conditions emerge or not has been the conduct and the behavior of the idf troops on the ground and the israeli government's policy. >> say more about that.

>> so, there is the policy level and that is kind of the theory, and then there is the practice that aid groups encounter on the ground. so, in theory, the government is allowing in aid through the crossings, but in practice, those crossings are often not accessible. the main crossing into southern and middle gaza were about 1.8 million people, most of the population, are now sheltering, that is almost off-limits for aid groups at this point, it is very rare to be able to safely get a convoy there, due to the criminality, due to ongoing fighting, and of course, to get a convoy there requires permission, a green light from the israeli military anytime aid groups try to go to the border. so, the ability to get there is very difficult and very arduous. you contrast that with the north where they have opened up several more crossings, and they are being for now much more permissive towards aid and it really has improved

conditions. so, those kind of variable changes in policy make a huge difference. >> there was a lot of talk about the peer that the u.s. constructed, it has not been proven to be particularly effective with aid getting in there, there is less aid getting in in total since the peer was constructed. it has almost become a punchline, sort of unifying between the right and left, people across the conflict. what do you think of the peer? >> it was announced as a kind of hail mary, and like a lot of hail marys, it hasn't succeeded. and i don't think it was done in exactly quite bad faith by the biden administration, i wouldn't say that, but it certainly was not any kind of plausible substitute for the court bread-and-butter of overlying crossings. >> is a possible to get -- i mean, it seems to me what you are describing are the conditions of the war and the conditions of the idf patrolling, particularly in rafah, where they say there is a wrapping up operation, although it is unclear, is it

possible to get enough aid in while the war is conducted, i guess is my question? >> i think it is very difficult, and the bigger difficulty than just getting the aid in is getting the aid delivered. the kind of last mile access that humanitarians need is very hard to reconcile with at least the way the idf is fighting this war. it wouldn't be impossible, humanitarians and navigate were conditions all the time, most places where we work would be conflicts, almost by definition. what's unique here is the level of obstruction that we have seen from the israeli government since the beginning of the war, and in particular, the conduct of idf forces on the ground, who have routinely targeted, harassed, intimidated humanitarian workers. not every instance of that makes the news, but it is the background noise of what humanitarians have to deal with. >> and you are saying that as someone who heard first-hand these accounts. >> that's right, heard for example that a u.n. official at a checkpoint was targeted by israeli forces and had a red dot on his chest.

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